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Re: Better grammar discussion
Zhenyu ("Zhenyu" <lizhenyu_god@...>) on April 13, 2010
Ci, in pa-tem, es poli interese sti-ma-boni sugesti pro Glosa!
— In glo= firstname.lastname@example.org, “patbe91” <patbe91@…> wrote:
I a= m new to glosa and I am strongly convinced by the basic idea of concept-= words, the affixes and much more.
I have read the ‘seminar1’ problems= . I still think that no language should be misused by trying to translat= e word by word and see if it works. Any language has its own way of expr= ession and trying to copy a european-language sentence directly into glo= sa is likely to fail.
Nevertheless, I have had quite some problems und= erstanding glosa sentences. And although writing in glosa might look eas= y at first sight, I think it is in fact difficult to avoid ambiguities. = This has already been discussed here before, and I think the fact that = most conversation here takes place in English is hinting at this probl= em. In my opinion Daniel Macouin has some good ideas to improve the lang= uage, however, as he remarks, ‘heavy’ ones. Perhaps some more English ‘b= enchmark sentences’ are needed which would be translated into standard g= losa and variants like pan-glosa, as a basis for discussing precision an= d elegance.
I like Daniel Macouin’s ideas but also propose here anothe= r solution for one of the problems.
My example sentence is:
= U paleo kali avi kanta…
Does the above mean: “The old beautiful bi= rd sings…” or “The old, beautiful bird-tune…” or “The Old sings beau= tiful bird-tunes…” is not immediately obvious, it is hidden in the sem= antics. We need to mark the noun. In fact glosa already has noun-markers= . The U is marking the noun, however I really do not understand why it i= s not placed next to the noun, like:
Paleo kali u avi kanta.
T= his would immediately signal to the reader that kanta is NOT the noun, b= ut avi is. This way, the U would serve two goals, to signal number and S= ubject of the sentence. Did I miss any reason for placing the “U” at the= beginning of the sentence, except for being similar to English?
= This was my simple suggestion. But nevertheless, Pan-Glosa has better = changes to offer.
The “ge” to mark ‘verbs of state’ =3D adjectives is= a very nice thing. We still think too much in the categories of europea= n grammar, I think.
In fact, when we say in glosa
“U avi habe = (u) ponde”, “U avi es ponde” and “U avi ponde”; A bird has a weight, a b= ird is heavy, a bird weighs…
In all three cases we mean that “a bird= has the property of weight”. All other differences are differences of E= uropean grammatical categories. And because of this, some English people= try to avoid the word “be”. A bird is not a weight! It is ambiguous and= not very elegant.
So I do not like the “es” very much and to indi= cate that ponde is a noun is not necessary. So although glosa explicitly= wants to avoid the pseudo-information which exists in these Europein-st= yle constructs, it we can write glosa like this. But at the same time it=
does not provide unambiguous ways of expressing the real content: Th= e interrelation of a noun’s properties and actions, where it lacks some = markers. On the other hand the Chinese property-marker is ‘de’ in the or= der adjective - de - noun. weight - de - avi
So I think “U avi ge pond= e” is much more elegant than glosa’s options and “noun - property marker=
- property - action marker - action” really seems a good scheme, in my = opinion.
I myself had tried to implement such a scheme by using “qa” a= s the property “qalita” marker and “ak” as the “aktio” marker before = reading Daniel’s posts:
E.g. “Tri dromo-pe qa celero e fo-sono e exces= i sudo e alti keiro ak dice qa celero e excita e fo-sono tem dromo.”
= Or also:
Celero e fo-sono e excesi sudo e alti keiro (plu) tri dromo= -pe ak dice qa celero e excita e fo-sono tem dromo.
But ge and go a= re of course equivalent.
I think pan-glosa might be:
Celero fo\s= ono excesi\sono alti\keiro tri dromo-pe go dice ge celero excita fo\sono= tem dromo.
I still contemplate if “jo” and “li” are needed.
= Jo Pan-glosa go es li u evolve de Glosa …
is more complicated than
Pan-glosa ge u evolve de Glosa …
or even shorter:
Pan-glosa= ge evolve de Glosa …
I will continue thinking about that.
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